Shift Your Spirits

About Channeling with Frank Butterfield

Episode Summary

Master Channel Frank Butterfield about what it means to be a channel, and how he channels Paul from the Communion of Light.

Episode Notes

Frank W. Butterfield is a Master Channel who has been working with individuals and groups since 2009 to help his clients remember who they are, in truth. First learning to channel in 1990, Frank has worked both in and out of the corporate world. He has discovered that the best way to live his own life is to allow the Universe to sort things out for him but always remembers that your mileage may vary. Having traveled extensively most of his life, he currently resides in Daytona Beach and has no interest in racing cars or riding motorcycles, but does love the beach.


…channeling, Communion of Light, Paul, chakras, the difference between mediumship and channeling, Edgar Cayce, Jane Roberts, Seth, Ester Hicks, Abraham, the distinction between channeling and deep trance channeling, intuitive development, psychic readings, the difference between willingness and ability...


Opening to Channel by Sanaya Roman and Duane Packer

Out on a Limb by Shirley MacLaine

Seth Books by Jane Roberts

Oversoul Series by Jane Roberts

A Course in Miracles by Dr. Helen Schucman

Ask and It Is Given by Esther and Jerry Hicks

This Morning, Over Here: A Memoir That Never Happened by Frank Butterfield

GUEST LINKS - Frank Butterfield

Communion of Light


Slade's Books & Courses

Get an intuitive reading with Slade

Automatic Intuition


Edit your pledge on Patreon



Thanks for listening to the Shift Your Spirits podcast.

I’m your host Slade Roberson.

For eleven years, I’ve been a professional intuitive and the author of the blog Shift Your Spirits, where I try to write about spirituality with fewer hearts and flowers than most New Age blather.

I also mentor emerging intuitives, psychics, and healers in a program called Automatic Intuition.

Today I have an interview with Frank Butterfield about channeling. What channeling is, how to do it. What it means to be a channel, and what to do if you think you might be one.

I love all my interview guests and all their segments are special for different reasons. But I must say, I did personally really dig the middle of this interview with Frank. I guess I should say he brought through a message that really resonated for me in that moment. I felt like he was channeling for me. I asked the question I sometimes ask guests, about what message he thinks is missing from the New Age conversation, and he went off about giving up what you're trying to get.

I can’t even paraphrase it or repeat it...

It’s a real twist on the concept of “surrender”— it's bad ass and down to earth and yet conceptually elevated.

Be sure and listen for it.

And, of course, as always, there’s an oracle segment at the end of the show.

So be thinking about a question or a concern you have. Hold it in your mind, and I’ll come back on, after the final links and credits, and leave you with that extra message.


I'd like to say a quick thank you to Angela Brophy and Tina Whisnant, my newest supporters on Patreon.

I appreciate all of you who have pledged your support and I’m really excited to see the new names each week. It demonstrates that you’re enjoying the show and want it to continue. That’s very encouraging to me, so thank you.

Listeners who support the show on Patreon can access bonus Q&A episodes, where you guys send in questions, I record answers to them, and they go out to patrons of the show exclusively. There’s also a level of support with a free guided meditation "Messages from Your Spirit Guides."

To find out how you can become a patron, support my time in producing this show, and access the extra bonus content, please go to

This week’s interview with Master Channel Frank Butterfield is a nice length, so I am going to cut my personal intro here. Let’s listen to Frank:



Well, my name is Frank Butterfield and I am a Channel, first and foremost. I've been doing that since 1990, although I've done a lot of other things. And I also am an author. I've published 19 novels and 3 non-fiction books that are based on my channeling work. I live in Daytona Beach Florida, right at the end of the road and go to the beach as often as I can. And have a pretty wonderful life. It's pretty quiet and I'm really enjoying where I'm at.

And I'm also really glad to be here.


Thank you for being here.

So what is channeling, for somebody who's never heard of that before. What is it and how do you do it?

Well, the way I do it, and it's a good question because there's a lot of different ways that people define channeling. But the way that I do it is I basically sit. I allow an energy, what I call a broader, non-physical perspective, to come through and sit in me. And then it speaks through me. And so communion of light is sort of the name that's used to describe what's going on and then the energy, the voice that talks through me, has a name called Paul.

That theoretically is supposedly connected to Saint Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus, but I don't really put a lot of stock into that. But in any event, it is very distinct. It speaks in a very different voice than I do, although our voices are now more similar than ever before. But now that I'm much more used to it and have been doing it for a long time, but the way in which they talk and I do speak of them as plural, with other people, it's very different than the way I do.

They get away with a lot of shit that I wouldn't dare let myself do.

But essentially, channeling is, for me, is just literally sitting inside of myself, not reaching up or out, but sitting inside myself and opening up something that then comes down into me and then moves through me. If you want to talk about chakras, what I'm doing is sitting in my heart chakra and then letting my throat chakra be open. And that's all that it is. It's really simple.

It's very simple now. Of course it wasn't simple at the beginning. But that's what it is.

What it isn't is mediumship. I can do mediumship. I don't like it, but basically what mediumship is for me is there's an energy that sits on my right and sort of whispers in my ear and then I relay what they're saying to whoever the mediumship experience is for. I haven't done it in a long time and I don't really have any desire to do it. There's lots of really great mediums out there.

But mediumship and channeling are not the same thing. Mediumship I like to consider to be sort of on the 6th chakra level. So it's more of a psychic experience that involves personality to personality interaction. Channeling the way that I do it is more of a 7th chakra perspective, where it's about a broader perspective, narrowing itself down through me. Whereas mediumship is very peer-to-peer, and channeling the way that I do it is a little bit different than that.


Okay, so how did you discover that you had the ability to do this?


Well, I don't know that... that's a really good question.

The way I found out how to do it was that I was working at a metaphysical bookstore that is sadly closed, called Fields Books, on, that was on Polk Street in San Francisco. And they had a book there that they were selling called Opening the Channel by Sanaya Roman and Duane Packer which is still available and I highly recommend it.

And I bought it, took it home and basically over the course of one afternoon, I don't recommend this, I sat down and kind of went through all the processes as fast as I could. And by that evening, something was talking through me. It was really difficult but it happened and it's... you know what's interesting is, it's not so much an ability as it is an interest. and I believe that's true about anything at all.

No one really has innate abilities but people cultivate ideas because they're interested in them. And then they just get better and better at them through practice or through repetition or whatever it may be.


Okay. So when you were saying that you were aware that something was speaking through you, so were you in a trance when this happened or were you consciously aware of it?

Explain the distinction there in your awareness.


Well my exposure to channeling prior to that was through reading the words of Jane Roberts and seeing the made-for-TV movie Out on a Limb that was a Shirley MacLaine project based on the novel or the non-fiction book she wrote, and they filmed two different channels and those two different channels actually sort of represent the distinction that I was talking about a little earlier.

One of the channels was more of a medium, and one of the channels was more of a sort-of broader perspective sort of person. But in any event, one of them obviously went into a very deep trance and the other one sort of went into a lighter trance. Jane Roberts went into a very deep trance apparently from the way it was described in the writings. As did Edgar Cayce. Who's another Channel who predates Jane Roberts.

But I, when I first was doing this, I was in - it was like I was in a hypnotic state. I was aware of what was going on, but I had nothing to do. And my job was to be open, which at the beginning was difficult but became easier and easier.

Now I can move back and forth very easily between the two states. I've never really been a deep trance Channel and I don't have the personality for it. I just kind of refuse to do anything where I'm absent from the process.

But I can also say that when I am channeling, there are plenty of times when I have no idea, I know that specific words like 'the', 'brown', 'dog', I know that 'the' and 'brown' and 'dog' were said, but I don't understand why they were said, I don't know what that meant, and I've learned not to care. That took awhile.

But it's not a deep trance. There's some people who can do that and they're very good at it and they just kind of get knocked out. Sanaya Roman talks about that in her experience that she, her first experience channeling was she turned on a tape recorder, she fell asleep and then she woke up 30 minutes later and it was 30 minutes of words that she didn't remember. She just thought she was asleep the entire time.

I've never had that experience, but I do sort of fade away and then come back. And time moves in a very different way than when I'm doing something like this, where I'm very aware of the passage of time. A long period of time will go by and I'll think it's only been 10 or 15 minutes.


How long was it from the time that you first tried this in San Francisco, sort of as an experiment How long was it from the time that that happened until you met Paul, or the Communion of the Light sort of revealed itself?


So there's kind of three stages.

So from 1990 to the winter of 1991, into '92, I was channeling this voice that called itself Raji. Which is an Indian first name. And it said very clearly, I'm here to help you get started and then when we're done I'll be gone and I'll move on.

And the winter of '91, '92 I lived in Provincetown, on the end of Cape Cod, and I was with a group that was reading A Course in Miracles, and one night, we were playing a round with the Ouija board, and the Ouija board said, Tell Frank to channel.

So I opened up and this very different thing happened. A very different voice and Raji was gone and has never been back.

So from that, I guess it was actually like January of '92 until June of 2007, I was channeling this sort of indeterminate, just very broad, non-personality driven energy. Which I now recognize was the Communion of Light. That's who they were.

But that was where I was in my ability, in my interest in allowing them. I was kind of going around saying, I'm kind of a Channel, I should be a Channel, I should be doing this but I'm not really doing it. And then in that interim time, in those 15 years, I went from being a person who kind of bopped around the country, to getting a real job and becoming really successful really quickly. And then all of a sudden remembering that I didn't have to do that anymore.

And so I had a real job for about 10 years, and then I just quit. And I walked around for about a year, year and a half, saying, There's something I know how to do that I probably should be doing, but I don't know what it is.

And it was channeling.

And I remember having lunch with a friend of mine, saying, I know there's something that I do that I'm supposed to be doing. And I'm going to come back to you at some point and say, You know what that thing was? And that was right. It was a, like a Thursday night, and a friend of mine, my roommate and I had gone to see a movie, we came back to the apartment, we sat down and I just said, I think I'm supposed to channel for you.

It just all of a sudden occurred to me.

And so when I opened my mouth, this more focused version of what I had been doing over the previous 15 years appeared. And kind of gave itself a definition in a way that it didn't have before. And I had a more, not really a personality, but a more clear notion of what it was. And it began to speak and then in that first night, it, or they, introduced themselves. They were like, Frank should do this and this and this, none of which I did.

And then they, when it was kind of over with, when they helped my friend with a question about his career, and which apparently was very useful, because he actually did what they suggested and then they said, Okay well now we're going to show you how to be a medium.

And I was like, Okay, whatever.

And they brought his mother in, who I'd never met, and then gave, you know, very, like all good mediums, they gave three points of identifying information that I had no idea about but that gave my friend the clue that there was something going on. And we even had what the Spiritualists would call a demonstration. There was an aroma of roses went through this room that was completely sealed off and just had air conditioning on. And it was pretty amazing.

And I did that, like I said, I did that for a little while and then I was like, That's not really me.

And I now realize what they were doing was saying, Okay here's a little bag of tricks that you think you're supposed to have. Why don't you go play with them and see if you like them. I didn't like any of them. So I just became a Channel.

And that was, I'm sure this is on your list of things to ask me, but that was about two months before I talked to you.


Oh! Okay, yeah.

I mean one of the things that I'm enjoying about this conversation, for the record for those who are listening, I have known you and observed from outside the experience, but I was curious about, I've heard these stories too, so I'm sitting here putting it all together as a timeline.

So you're saying this is where I came in to knowing you.


Yeah. That's exactly right.


Okay, so keep going. This is fascinating.


So I did that for a couple months. I was just kind of trying to figure out what to do with my life and then I kind of came to a crisis where I was trying to understand what it meant to be a Channel. Did it mean I was going to have to give up myself, which is what I had always believed. I think that's why I always dabbled with it. That I was going to have to give up my personality, my sense of self.

And I had had a project at the time where I was interviewing people and I can't even remember what the topic was, but you were one of the people that I interviewed. For some, like it was a podcast or, I don't know what I was doing. But somehow that's how I got in touch with you. And then about a week after we talked, I called, I texted, I don't know how I got in touch with you, but I just was like, I need help, I'm having a nervous breakdown.

And you kind of walked me through, No, there's - I don't remember what you said, but what i got out of it was, there's you as the Channel, and then there's you as Frank. And you're, it's just like a job. You're going to put on this hat, and when you're done with the hat, with the job, you take off the hat.

And I was like, Oh, yeah, of course!

And so, what's interesting is, what has actually happened is that through the channeling and through what I've been doing since then, I have become more of myself, not less. And I have become more at peace with different idiosyncratic aspects of myself and different parts of my personality and everything is sort of folded in together, instead of being these wildly disparate parts that I was really scared of. And now everything is more integrated.

So it's exactly the opposite of what I was afraid of. So that's how we met.

And then the next significant thing that happened was that I, about a month after we talked, at this point I was living in Dallas, which is itself a weird story because I had lived in Austin and nobody goes from Austin to Dallas. Everybody goes from Dallas to Austin. Because they're like, I'm tired of living this big city life. I'm going to go some place where everybody's cool.

So I did the opposite.

But in doing so, I met a group of people in Fort Worth, of all places, who were Abraham devotees. And Abraham, I'd always been like, I'd seen the books, I'd never picked one up, and I thought, Oh Abraham, Sarah, Esther... I get it. Bible, bible, bible. This is just more of that old new-thought crap where everything has to be biblically based. Of course I didn't read anything. I didn't know what they were talking about.

But it just - I was like, Eh, whatever.

So I go to this group in Fort Worth and then there's going to be an Abraham workshop down in San Antonio. So there I'll just, as Abraham people do, completely, completely over the moon about this opportunity. And they're like, You have to go with us! And so I did. Even though I really didn't have the money. Somebody actually paid for me to go, which was really sweet.

So we get there and of course, being this group, we got there as soon as the doors opened. And so we then sat in chairs for an hour and a half waiting for the thing to start. Because everybody wanted to be right up front.

And we get in there and I'm just like, Okay, then suddenly, the room's filling up and it's time to start. And I suddenly became aware of the presence of Abraham as an energy. And it was just really obvious.

And then as soon as, the way I imagine is the way I saw it, was that up at the top of the room, there was like people waiting, like people waiting for the warehouse to open or the factory to open to start their shift. And they were all standing around smoking cigarettes and shooting the breeze. And then all of a sudden, the shift started and it all coalesced as a single energy right at the centre of the room.

I wasn't imagining this. It was literally what I saw. That's how i interpreted it.

And then as soon as that coalescing happened, Esther and Jerry, Esther Hicks and her husband Jerry, walked in the door. And Esther's the woman who channels Abraham. They walked in the door and we started.

The first part of the workshop was amazing. There were one after another after another of people asking questions and it was really, really amazing to sit there and watch Esther do her thing. Because I could see what she was doing. As a Channel, I knew enough about what I was doing already to see how she was handling the energy.

What was fascinating was a guy comes up. The last question of the first segment. So before the first break. And he's missing an arm, missing his right arm and missing his right leg. And he walks up and he sits down in the chair and he says, I want my arm and my leg back. Just like that. That's literally his opening question.

And I saw Esther kind of pop out and look around at the room, be like, How the hell am I going to do this? Which I very much recognized. And then she popped back in.

And then Abraham began to do something that I'm now very familiar with, and was kind of like, helping him begin to open up to possibilities instead of seeing a big leap from a missing limbs to i want to have the limbs back, began to walk him through the ideas of what could possibly happen. And a lot of it was about being willing to be like the coolest guinea pig who tests out new prosthetics, which I thought was amazing.

But it was just this really great conversation. When that was over with, because I didn't know myself like I know myself now, I didn't do this, but I immediately wanted to get up and drive back to Dallas. I did not want to stay for the rest of the workshop. But because I was there with this group of people and this person had paid for me to be there, I stayed.

What a friend of mine who was in that group said to me later was that, she said I thought you just looked so angry after that first break.

And I said, Well, I wasn't angry. I just was very uncomfortable. And what I ended up doing was I ended up getting all the way to the back of the room. I wanted to be there because I felt like I was doing homework. Or studying something. And I wanted to be in the room but I didn't want to be in the room. And I went all the way, way, way, way into the back.

And that's the only Abraham workshop I've ever been to and I would never go to one again. I might change my mind and it's not because the work isn't amazing. It's just because it's not me. And it's not for me.

But the next thing that happened after that was about six months later after I was still kind of dabbling a little bit and hadn't really said, Okay I'm a Channel and this is what I do. I end up back in Austin and the way Communion of Light describes this is, the way Paul describes this is, that they sent me to Abraham school, which, that's really the best way to put it.

I just suddenly had an idea one day and I realized there was this law of attraction group in Austin that was kind of sitting there with nobody running it. And I had been part of that before I moved to Dallas. And I was coming back to Austin so I thought, Oh great, I'll just take over this group. It was one of those meet-up groups. We'll just study Ask and It Is Given, which is the big Abraham book.

And so I did, I don't know why it came to me, but I just set up this little agenda, something I would never even normally do. And like we're going to do chapters 1, 2, 3, first week and then 4, 5, 6, and then 7, 8, 9. And I stood up at the front. I explained, we went through that book. And then we went through another book. And then we did the first book again. And then I set up the second group. And then both of the groups ended at the same time the study of whatever books we were looking at, after about six months. And then I was done.

And by then, I knew it felt better to just leave. And that's when I started kind of my practice that I do now and the work that I do now.

And that's when clients began to come to me and began to show up. And I started being able to make a living doing what I do now. And that was - what was also fascinating about that is that at the beginning, the first year or two I got lots of people who were saying - well there were two groups. One group would say, I've gotten everything from Abraham I can get. And so now I've found you and now I feel like all of my questions are being answered. Because that is the difference between Paul and Abraham's. Paul directly answers the questions that people ask whereas Abraham will take the questions and use them as examples for teaching. And Paul will say very clearly we don't teach. We remind. And that's a big part of what they talk about. And they're always kind of reminding people that that's what they're doing.

So that was one group.

But then there was another group much smaller. Who would kind of show up, they would sort of pop their head up somewhere and say, You're just copying Esther.

I'm like, you need to come and see that this is very different.

But it took me awhile to be able to realize that I was right when I said that. Because I would, every time someone would show up to say that, I would sort of think, well maybe they're right. Maybe I'm just mimicking. And then I would ask people who'd been to every single Abraham workshop since 1993 and say, Is this the same?

And they would say, No, it's absolutely different. The words are enough the same to where I don't get lost. And that's when I begin to realize, Oh, that's why I went to Abraham school. Was so that I would learn that language.

So that happened for the next couple of years and then by about 2010, I was in my element and I was rocking and rolling and that's what's been going on ever since. Getting better and better, but you know, pretty much...


Yeah, so currently, because I've been to live events like what you describe. The trance channeling event that I went to was a much smaller, like a circle, kind of thing. 20 people. It wasn't a full-on conference hall kind of experience. But channeling is obviously different than what most people expect from a psychic reading and so...




Just kind of describe for people how do you do your work? How do your followers or clients experience these messages? How do you put them out there?


Well, the way people - I don't know how people find me. Because I don't advertise. They just show up. And that's perfect. That's exactly right.

But in terms of how I interact with people or how they interact with Paul, I do have, well, I guess I have three different types of experiences that people can get into. First there's a thing that's been going on since 2010 called the Village, which is just a series of weekly calls that happen twice a week now, used to be three times but now twice, and you just, it's open. You bring whatever question you have and there are people from all over the world who come into those calls.

The other thing that I do, and I don't do it every week but almost every week is, I have a Saturday through Friday series of conversations that happen at the same time every day. 10am Eastern Time. And people come in with - there's a little, it's on a specific topic and there'll be a 10 - 15 minute initial sort of conversation about it and then time for people to ask questions about it after that.

And so that's - they can, that's one way of sort of coming in a little bit closer because those conversations are much more intimate and they're very specific. So people come in with specific questions on a specific topic, like it might be, their self-image, body, creativity, their work, money. Any... It can be, or just general metaphysics, sometimes.

So there's that.

And I also do private sessions where people can talk one on one.

One of the strategies, for lack of a better way of putting it, that I've developed is, I kind of keep the private sessions over to the side. Because there was a period of time when I had what I like to call “looky-loos", who came in and would do one private session and they would not read any of the things I had written about what a session is like, and they would come in and be like, Tell me about my Aunt Esther.

And I'm like, ... did you... and Paul would basically read them the Riot Act and say, This is not fortune telling. This is not that. This is not mediumship. There are other people. Go to them. But if you want to find out about you in relationship to your Aunt Esther, whether she's alive or dead, we can talk about that. But we can't tell you about her because we're not talking to her we're talking to you.

And that, I began to realize... So now, in terms of pricing, if somebody comes to the website, you can book a private session, but it's going to cost a whole lot of money. And I do that specifically because I don't want people just coming in off the street doing that. I'd rather them go in through, either the Village or through actually the morning series calls. Because there it's a really good way to get exposed to the material. I also have tons of samples. I don't even know how many hours now. But lots and lots of them. So there's lots of opportunities to sort of hear what it's like and then decide if it's right.

Because it isn't right for everybody. And I would not suggest that anyone who generally considers themselves to be a psychic or to be interested in intuitive development, a lot of the people you work with, that that's not going to be enough. You're going to want to have something a little bit more because I don't like to say that this is advanced material, because it isn't, but we talk a lot about things that, as far as I know, are not being discussed anywhere else. But then again, I don't really know because I don't pay attention to what anyone else is doing.

But I do know that Paul is very direct with people and is very clear and that's not for everybody. Because some people, and I do hold you responsible for this by the way, Slade.




Because you're - that thing that you say. Where 83% less flowers or something.


Oh, okay!


It comes from that. It literally comes from that. Because there was something that, there was like the first time I ever saw your website and I saw that, it was like a bell went off. And I thought, Of course! That's actually what makes what I'm doing very different. Because there's no soft pedaling. It's not hard information. It's not scary information. It's just very direct. It's like, You are doing this and you can do something different. Which is very different than saying, Well, you know, some people do it in this way and then you could maybe think about doing it in that way. It's very direct. Gets right to the heart of the matter of whatever the person is bringing to the table.

Which I very much love. Because, to me, that's the most useful thing you can do. But it's not what everybody wants. And I wouldn't pretend to think that that would be right for any particular specific person. Only the other person is going to know. I would never know.

So that's why I like to kind of give people the ability to sort of float in and float out and see what they like and what they don't. And then if they want to go deeper, there's lots of other opportunities to do that.


You'd be the perfect person to ask the question about what kind of message do you feel like perhaps it's something that comes through when you're doing these sessions with Paul and the Communion of Light. A message that you feel like is missing from a lot of other new age channels and I don't mean channel in the literal sense. I just mean any kind of platform that produces these types of conversations. This type of subject matter.

Is there something that you sort of want to put out there that you don't feel gets said enough?


Well, if you want to hear, yes. There is one very specific thing. But it's kind of an assholey thing for me to say.


That's alright.


Okay. So it's that, it's basically - how much can I curse?


You can curse all you want to. I'll put a little red E on the episode.



Stop. Fucking. Manipulating. The. Universe.

Stop trying to manipulate the Universe to give you what you want. It doesn't work. And I know you agree with me on this. Well, actually I don't know that. I suspect you do.

What I hear a lot of new age people saying is, Here's how you're going to convince the Universe to be on your side. And that's not the way it works. The Universe is absolutely positively on your side. In a way that you can't even begin to comprehend because there's no person who is on your side the way the Universe is.

Because every person has an ax to grind. And that makes them distinct from you.

That's part of the set up of physical reality is that there's a distinction between you and someone else. And the distinction is not the body but rather the intention that causes the body to happen. So the thing that really - it doesn't bother me. It's just like, there's a lot of, How can I massage the Universe, how can I convince the Universe to do what I want it to do?

You can't. You can't control it. But you can direct it. But directing and controlling are two very very different things. You can direct and say, this is the intention that I have. And then you have to stand back and let it happen. And you can't control it. And there's sort of an idea in the new age new thought arena where if I can figure out how to control my mind, control my body, control my events, control my circumstances, control my situations, control my relationships, then I'll get all the things that I want.

But that's impossible.

You literally can't control any of those things.




Because control is the illusion that we generate because we believe, and this is getting right to the heart of stuff Paul talks about, because we believe we live in a chaotic universe and we are supposed to be controlling things. It's not just something that people do who have a pathology. It's what you're supposed to do because otherwise you are going to get in a shitload of trouble.


So what can we do instead? How should we orient ourselves away from that in another direction?


Well my favorite thing that Paul says is, Give up now. Give up early. Give up often. Give up immediately. Give up constantly. Always give up. Always give up.

And that's another one of those new age things where people will come around and be like, Never give up! Hold on to your dreams.

No. Actually, give up your dreams. Not because you're now giving them away and you're never going to have them again. But because the Universe actually... it's not like the Universe ever forgot that you had a dream. And it's not your job to work on it. So the practical, most practical thing, in my opinion, is, and it's to be willing to let go of whatever it is that you're trying to get.




But the key there is willing. It's amazing how many people will be like, will say, I don't want to give up what I'm working on.

Well, you don't have to give up on it. Just be willing to give up on it. And the way Paul puts that is, still, somebody will say, Well, I'm intending to create this experience. And they'll say, Okay... First and foremost, are you willing to not have it? And of course, you know, even people who've been asked that question many times will say, No, I'm not. I really, really... I need it. I want it. I've got to have it. I've got to get it.

And then I say, Well, you're going to have a very hard time getting to it because as long as you NEED it, you're always going to be in a state of needing it. And means that it will be over there, not over here.

You don't accomplish NEEDING something by getting to it or making it happen. Even the people you think are doing that, even when you think you've done that in the past, that's not how it happened. It happened because you let go of it long enough for it to come to you. Because that's the way this is designed. Everything comes to you. Nothing is supposed - you're not supposed to be reaching out for anything. You can, and it's okay if you do, but let it come to you because everything is designed to come to you but not in the sort of Shirley Temple Good Ship Lollipop sort of way that most people think that means.

Like, well then everything will be exactly perfect.

No! Shit is still going to happen. But you need shit to happen. Because that's part of the physical experience. That's how you define the difference between one thing and another. Is by noticing, This is something I don't want. And so that gives you the opportunity to decide, well this is something I do want. But not want as in need, but want as in have a preference for or have an affinity for.




And as I've begun to kind of, for myself, really take a lot of this in and try to walk as much of the talk that comes out of my mouth as I can, what I've noticed is, my desire for stuff has diminished. Greatly.



Whereas I thought, I was always afraid for a long time that all of this talk how manifestation works in creating your own reality, I would end up being very greedy. But actually the exact opposite has happened And I find myself more delighted to be in the midst of what I'm beginning to realize other people are probably judging me for, which I don't really give a shit about, and I don't give a shit about it. They're like, You should be - and I say this very jokingly - you're as good as Esther. Why don't you have three houses and 15 gazillion clients and selling 19,000 best-selling books because you're not working, you're not doing what you're supposed to do?

No, I'm doing exactly what I want to do. And I don't want any of that. I thought I wanted it. Because it seemed like this very Good Ship Lollipop kind of thing that would be really great to have and then I would be in the middle of all of this whatever it is that she has and, I don't want what she has. I mean, I love that she has it. I think that it's fabulous. But I don't want it.

This sounds much loftier and much more exalted than I mean it. It's just, being willing to give up what it is that I thought I wanted has allowed me to discover what it is that I truly, truly, truly love. Which I feel like I've just barely scraped the surface of.


That was awesome. I love all of that. I'm just taking it in. I'm glad I asked you that question. It was a last minute add.

Alright, let's switch gears just a little bit. There's somebody out there listening right, who feels like they might be emerging as a Channel. They're going through that experience that you were going through 10 years ago. So what do you recommend that they do first?


Well... Oh that's a really good question. It would depend. And so I'll give a couple of scenarios.

The part... So the story that I've told about my own process is stretched out because I'm really stubborn. But I also had to kind of learn who I was. And that didn't happen 'til I turned 40. Really, truly. And that was 10 years ago.

So all that summer of 2007 stuff was right after I turned 40. And that's kind of when I became a real person, in my opinion. Because everything else I'd been doing was, I was trying to satisfy other people's desires, and that's - if you're willing to become a Channel, you're going to discover all of the shit that you've been trying to pull on yourself your entire life. You can't get away from it. And that's not for everybody.

But the simple most practical thing I would do is I would either get a coach, a mentor, someone else who's done it, or really go to the basics, which is that book. There's never been a better book written on this topic than Opening the Channel. It is - and if you do what they say in the way that they say it, and you do it in the order and in the amount of time it takes, not one day, but over a series of weeks into months, it will work.

You'll also discover what it is that you're really wanting.

When, back in that summer of 2007, there was a guy that I knew in Dallas who I went and had lunch with one day. And I was telling him about, it was after I'd been to San Antonio, and I was telling him about what I'd seen and what had happened and all that. And he, because his way of teaching is to be an asshole, so what he did was, he said, This is all about your ego.

And I was like, Well, yes but except for the part where I'd done this long enough to know that it isn't about my ego. I would be willing to walk away from it. I'm not trying to do this to become famous or become like, although I probably didn't say that at the time, but I was pretty aware of it at the time.

But what he was pointing out was, you're going to get to sit in all of your stuff and that's, it's not for the faint of heart.

And I'm not saying it's hard. It's actually, this is actually a very simple thing to do. It's just that it requires you to move into a place psychologically, mentally, energetically, where you're willing to let go of what you think is supposed to happen. And for me, that's what channeling - for me it's a daily practice. That's what channeling is. Is it allows me to sit and let something much bigger than me happen. Through me. And to be willing to not have to figure out what I'm going to say next or how I'm going to do it or how I'm going to show up. Just to be able to recognize the right people, right place, right time, right way, is what's going on. Always.

So the willingness to fall back into that and to be open to it is first and foremost. And when I say willingness, I don't mean ability to do that. It's WILLINGNESS. Because everybody has the ability to do that already. Organically. As a part of their nature. The willingness is where the rub is. If you're willing to let it happen, it will happen. But you don't - and it's not 100% willingness, it's just a little bit, in my experience.

So again, the practical thing is:
a. Get help. Don't do it by yourself. Even if that means just a book. Or.. because they also did a set of recordings, Sanaya and Duane did, on this, for that book. But get someone else to help you. And be aware of the fact that not mediumship, which is a very different thing, but channeling as in, just letting this energy come through you, is about being willing to let something bigger than how you perceive yourself happen. And it sounds really exalted and, Ohmygod, that's of course exactly what everyone and all people should be doing.

But it's scary as shit. Because when the rubber meets the road, you've still got your identity of yourself and how you are holding yourself together and what you're supposed to be doing to make things happen. And channeling will challenge that.

It's not difficult and it's not really as scary as I'm making it sound. It's just that it's like a very fast course of psychotherapy.


Well it sounds like if you are listening to this and you feel like that is your path, the easiest thing for you to do as a human being, period, is to simply move in to it. And move through it. Right?


Yeah. And it's not going to feel simple. But it is the simplest thing.


I don't want to run out of time, and I could talk to you all day and we could just go and go and actually people could just go to you and listen to more of you. But I want to give you an opportunity to talk about - you have a new book that just came out today called, This Morning, Over Here: A Memoir That Never Happened.

Tell us about that.


Well, briefly. It's a little novella that I wrote about a month ago as just something that came to me and it's a story about me moving over into what Paul likes to call a Parallel Reality. And I just wake up one morning and I have everything that I've ever wanted. But I don't have everything that I know. And it's sort of like, 24-hour period of walking through this reality trying to figure out who I am now, and it's - I wrote it, it's kind of in the tradition of Jane Roberts The Over Soul Seven series of books and taking some of these ideas and putting them into practice.

But hilariously, yesterday, because I knew I was going to release this today, I asked Paul, Okay, could this actually happen? Because I knew they were involved in this. In fact, they're quoted in the book to a certain extent. And they were like, No, you can't. You literally can't do that. And they explained why, in a lot of detail, much longer than we have here. But they said thinking about it is really helpful thing because being aware of the fact that every idea manifests, every idea manifests. It just may not manifest with you. Is a very powerful thought. And there's a lot you can do with that.

So I really enjoyed the process of writing the book. I really love the story for a variety of reasons. And it was one of those experiences where I, exactly what they said yesterday is exactly what I discovered. Which was, as I wrote the book, I could see the ME that moved over into this other reality started kicking ass a little bit more than I normally do. And I was kind of like, Oh, I like that! I like what's going on over here.

And it wasn't the stuff. It was what happened in my personality, how I adapted to it.

So it was fun to write. And it's a really quick read. It's only 24,000 words so it's maybe a couple of hours at the most. And I just had a lot of fun with it. And it's up on Amazon, so...


Links in the show notes. I'll put a link in there for sure.

So, Frank, it's been really wonderful just to kind of hear your story laid out in chronological fashion like that. Tell everyone where they can go online to find you.


So it's really easy. Just go to and there's a bunch of things there. You can contact me through there. You can listen to hundreds or samples of things that I've done over the last 10 years, or last 7 years, really. Or you can jump in and enjoy some of the things we're doing. And get in touch! let me know you heard this conversation. I'd love to talk to anyone about the topic of channeling or whatever it is that comes up for you. And so, thats where you can find me. That's where I'm at.


Well I feel really honoured to get to capture some of your time and wisdom today. It was really terrific. Thank you for coming on.


Well thank you! It was a real pleasure and what a lot of fun as always talking with you.


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I promised to leave you a message in answer to a question or a concern you may have.

So take a moment to think about that — hold it in your mind or speak it out loud. I’ll pause for just a few seconds….right…now.



Do it or don’t do it.

When it comes to purpose, at some point it’s about action and it’s a choice; it’s a decision you make.

But just keep in mind, if you’ve been given something really wonderful to share with the world, it’s not selfish for you to do so. It’s the exact opposite.

It’s terrible for you to withhold your gift.

Let us have it.

And I’ll talk to you later.